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posted by: Alley Gator	09/24/11 6:04 am
DEBATING THE PANTHEON	(25)
posted under: Pantheon

This blog topic is limited to conversations about Gator's Pantheon and its two immediate offshoots. All other artist lists on the Alley -- including Cats' own versions of the Pantheon -- are created, viewed, and discussed on the Artist Lists page.

Nothing on this site seems to stir up controversy quite like the Pantheon. It takes the messy, incoherent wildness of rock & soul music and imposes a grid on it. How perverse! Maybe that's why it provokes conversations like nothing else I've ever done. I love it for that.

Check out FAQ Pantheon for detailed information about the criteria, the time periods, the tiers, and the reasoning behind what are obviously judgment calls.

Comment here to say why you agree or disagee with the approach -- or the results -- of Gator's version.

To make your own Pantheon list, you can start by making a copy of one of the six time period templates under Artist Lists. Then make it your own! Or you can start from scratch with a blank template.

As Cats' Pantheon lists and comments accumulate over time, Gator will create aggregated and/or consensus lists as needed to focus further discussion.

Tags: List Maker tool | criteria | time periods | tiers

25 comments | log in to comment | permalink

MustangSal says:	09/25/11 10:50 am
I can't believe that Warren Zevon doesn't show up somewhere in the Pantheon! If originality is your criterion, he definitely deserves a place!
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MustangSal says:	09/26/11 7:19 am
Oh, boy! You are going to get a lot of flack, putting the Grateful Dead down at level 6 and The Doors at level 5! I'd venture to suggest that both groups belong at level 3 at least. Actually, looking at your Pantheon makes me realize the extent to which musical tastes and opinions are a product of exposure. I've never even heard of some of your top picks.
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Linden Arden says:	09/28/11 1:36 am
MustangSal said: Oh, boy! You are going to get a lot of flack, putting the Grateful Dead down at level 6 and The Doors at level 5! I'd venture to suggest that both groups belong at level 3 at least. Actually, looking at your Pantheon makes me realize the extent to which musical tastes and opinions are a product of exposure. I've never even heard of some of your top picks. I suspect that Gator has not spent much time at Dead concerts. As for the Doors, I think that they are one of the all time over rated bands. But that's probably another conversation.
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cornercat says:	09/30/11 4:29 am
When you say Rock and Soul, I find it hard to believe that Alex Chilton and the Boxtops don't make the list anywhere. In my view, "The Letter" by itself is enough to get him on there, not to mention the rest of his work. Gram Parsons, Steve Earle, PJ Harvey, Wilco are a few of the ones on the list who may be excellent artists, but don't necessarily make me think "Rock and Soul." No Boxtops? Hmmm... Gimme a Ticket for an Aeroplane...
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jere1911 says:	09/30/11 11:12 pm
Just a pitch that Michael Jackson should be up in Tier 2--based on the quality and influence of his songs, musical production and arrangements, his dance, his music videos, and his pervasive place in the musical culture of the period. In some ways, he was the Elvis of that time. Seems at least as deserving as the others in the Tier, e.g., Talking Heads.
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jere1911 says:	10/02/11 7:42 pm
As I look at some of the artists in the Pantheon, particularly in the lower tiers, I wonder whether they really had a body of work of significance--at least one known to more than a a few hard core fans. Did they have more than a couple of hits, for example? Take Duane Eddy. Or even The Righteous Brothers. Now I suppose the twangy electrified sound Eddy produced could be said to have influenced other musicians, and that's a fair criterion. But was HE really the one who did that? Or was he a copier of more significant artists? Was he a popularizer of significance. or a minor figure? Of course, I could just be ignorant of his body of work and that's what debating the Pantheon can do--educate us. What about the Brothers? I loved their two or three big hits. They did show that white singers could fool black listeners! They were good artists. But for Pantheon membership I need more information as a justification. Other Cats will have similar examples. Perhaps there is a trend here--more agreement likely the higher the tier, and less the lower the tier? it would be an interesting test.
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cornercat says:	10/24/11 5:30 pm
jere1911 said: Perhaps there is a trend here--more agreement likely the higher the tier, and less the lower the tier? "Body of work" versus "significant influential recording" is an interesting issue. I'm not sure it's limited to the lower tiers. How many Al Green songs can you sing or call to mind off the top of your head? Hugely influential guy, though, based, I think, on a song or two and a great voice and sound for the ages. At first glance, there seems to be a dramatic change in the Pantheon after 1976. More artists that I have trouble identifying with "rock and soul." Could you hum a couple of NWA melodies for me, please? :-)
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MustangSal says:	10/27/11 4:44 am
MustangSal said: Oh, boy! You are going to get a lot of flack, putting the Grateful Dead down at level 6 and The Doors at level 5! I'd venture to suggest that both groups belong at level 3 at least. Actually, looking at your Pantheon makes me realize the extent to which musical tastes and opinions are a product of exposure. I've never even heard of some of your top picks. Linden Arden said: I suspect that Gator has not spent much time at Dead concerts. As for the Doors, I think that they are one of the all time over rated bands. But that's probably another conversation. Musical tastes are intensely personal. Nevertheless, I'd like to know why you think The Doors are over rated!
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jere1911 says:	10/28/11 2:36 pm
The Pantheon makes me think of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and I welcome discussion of the following thought: is the RRHOF, like other institutions of its kind, continually DILUTING the quality of its inductees? I mean look at the artists in the Pantheon, which is arguably a REAL hall of fame--assuming "fame" equals quality rather than mere popularity! Because the RRHOF--like many "halls of fame"--has, as an institution, decided to induct so many people year after year (296 artists in 26 years) it simply runs short of truly deserving candidates. The Dave Clark Five? Rufus with Chaka Kahn? Alice Cooper? And next year's nominees include Heart and Laura Nyro. Anyway, this is a problem that can inflict sports halls of fames, perhaps even some of the Nobel prizes, though I recall that the Nobel Peace Prize isn't given out every year. I wonder what the RRHOF would look like if the limit were 3-4 per year. Which leads to the question of the purpose of it. And suggests this test for inclusion in either the HOF or the Pantheon--are we listening (and will we be listening) to the artist's BODY OF WORK (not just a tune or two) decades after it was originally released for reasons other than our personal nostalgic associations?
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Alley Gator says:	11/03/11 2:02 am
jere1911 said: I wonder what the RRHOF would look like if the limit were 3-4 per year. Which leads to the question of the purpose of it. And suggests this test for inclusion in either the HOF or the Pantheon--are we listening (and will we be listening) to the artist's BODY OF WORK (not just a tune or two) decades after it was originally released for reasons other than our personal nostalgic associations? Thanks for raising such interesting questions. Here's my take: In a Pantheon of six tiers, by design, standards are more demanding and agreement is greater at the top than the bottom. It couldn't be otherwise. At the top, greatness is stacked up against greatness. Near the bottom, inclusion is inherently relative, hence controversial. I think this is true of all rank-order lists, as you proposed. In Gator's Pantheon, tiers 5 and 6 include some artists with caveats. As good as they are, for example, Darlene Love, The Ronettes, and The Righteous Brothers can't be divorced in my mind from Phil Spector. Nor can The O'Jays and Spinners be divorced from the architects of the Philadelphia Sound. There's an element of "representing" those sounds in the choices of those artists. It's the Phil Spector and Philadelphia Sound box sets that are the bodies of work; these are the best of their artists. Tier 6, inevitably, is a mixed bag of innovators, culturally important iconoclasts, personal favorites, and the best of the remaining candidates. I'd have a hard time trimming the list of 32 tier 6 artists down to 24 or 16 or 8, but I could do it if I had to. I'd have put them in tier 5 if I thought they belonged there. I think tiers are a good idea for any ranking system; in the the Pantheon, because the single notion of "performing artist" is nuanced. In the core cases, it's easy to agree. Once you get to the periphery, particular contexts come into play, categories get fuzzy, all that stuff. Lower tiers require less stringent justification, allowing for more nuance - and more controversy!. I look forward to others' comments.
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jere1911 says:	11/06/11 10:57 pm
jere1911 said: I wonder what the RRHOF would look like if the limit were 3-4 per year. Which leads to the question of the purpose of it. And suggests this test for inclusion in either the HOF or the Pantheon--are we listening (and will we be listening) to the artist's BODY OF WORK (not just a tune or two) decades after it was originally released for reasons other than our personal nostalgic associations? Alley Gator said: In Gator's Pantheon, tiers 5 and 6 include some artists with caveats. As good as they are, for example, Darlene Love, The Ronettes, and The Righteous Brothers can't be divorced in my mind from Phil Spector. Nor can The O'Jays and Spinners be divorced from the architects of the Philadelphia Sound. There's an element of representing those sounds in the choices of those artists. It's the Phil Spector and Philadelphia Sound box sets that are the bodies of work; these are the best of their artists. I think the point about "representative" artists is interesting and a good one. I hadn't thought of it, which shows that raw lists necessarily tell only part of their own story. That's the point of these discussions. To elaborate! The point about Phil Spector as the one with the body of work makes me think of recent music in which the producers seem to be king.
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Linden Arden says:	11/11/11 5:22 pm
MustangSal said: Oh, boy! You are going to get a lot of flack, putting the Grateful Dead down at level 6 and The Doors at level 5! I'd venture to suggest that both groups belong at level 3 at least. Actually, looking at your Pantheon makes me realize the extent to which musical tastes and opinions are a product of exposure. I've never even heard of some of your top picks. Linden Arden said: I suspect that Gator has not spent much time at Dead concerts. As for the Doors, I think that they are one of the all time over rated bands. But that's probably another conversation. MustangSal said: Musical tastes are intensely personal. Nevertheless, I'd like to know why you think The Doors are over rated! Thanks for asking & sorry it took a while to reply. When I looked at Wikipedia I was surprised to learn that the Doors were the first American band to earn 8 consecutive gold albums. But when I look at the albums, I feel no reason to back off the assertion that the band is overrated. The first album, The Doors, is great and contains a timeless song, Light My Fire. For me the other albums confirm what we all know, that popularity does not always equate with greatness. I could find only a handful of songs that I even remember and none of them are that good (People Are Strange, Hello, I love You, LA Woman). Not much for 8 gold albums. I’m sure that others here will find more songs to like. But compared with the other artists at the same level in the Pantheon, the Doors just don’t belong. Last comment: I think that there are artists, especially from this era (1967-1971), about whom we might confuse cultural significance with musical greatness (Janis Joplin?). OK, not the last comment: Gator states somewhere that he considered artistry, innovation, and impact when compiling the Pantheon. So was there something about the impact of the Doors that places them at the 5th tier? For my money, both Rod Steward/Faces & Gram Parsons/Flying Burrito Bros. should be ranked above the Doors on artistic merit alone.
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MustangSal says:	11/20/11 4:54 am
MustangSal said: Oh, boy! You are going to get a lot of flack, putting the Grateful Dead down at level 6 and The Doors at level 5! I'd venture to suggest that both groups belong at level 3 at least. Actually, looking at your Pantheon makes me realize the extent to which musical tastes and opinions are a product of exposure. I've never even heard of some of your top picks. Linden Arden said: I suspect that Gator has not spent much time at Dead concerts. As for the Doors, I think that they are one of the all time over rated bands. But that's probably another conversation. MustangSal said: Musical tastes are intensely personal. Nevertheless, I'd like to know why you think The Doors are over rated! Linden Arden said: Thanks for asking & sorry it took a while to reply. When I looked at Wikipedia I was surprised to learn that the Doors were the first American band to earn 8 consecutive gold albums. But when I look at the albums, I feel no reason to back off the assertion that the band is overrated. The first album, The Doors, is great and contains a timeless song, Light My Fire. For me the other albums confirm what we all know, that popularity does not always equate with greatness. I could find only a handful of songs that I even remember and none of them are that good (People Are Strange, Hello, I love You, LA Woman). Not much for 8 gold albums. I’m sure that others here will find more songs to like. But compared with the other artists at the same level in the Pantheon, the Doors just don’t belong. Last comment: I think that there are artists, especially from this era (1967-1971), about whom we might confuse cultural significance with musical greatness (Janis Joplin?). OK, not the last comment: Gator states somewhere that he considered artistry, innovation, and impact when compiling the Pantheon. So was there something about the impact of the Doors that places them at the 5th tier? For my money, both Rod Steward/Faces & Gram Parsons/Flying Burrito Bros. should be ranked above the Doors on artistic merit alone. We're all busy ;^) I can see your point. There are a few additional songs I'd add to your all-time-great list, but scarcely eight albums worth. Also, I suppose that Level 5 isn't really so bad, considering that Gator put bands like Pink Floyd there as well. The Doors were a major voice in my own teen experience, but that doesn't necessarily make them objectively great.
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bad habitat says:	11/28/11 2:25 pm
A few quick comments on the Pantheon. First of all overrated: U2, Prince, Eagles, Radiohead, Buddy Holly, Police. Then underrated: The Doors without question. They belong somewhere around 2nd tier. Others that I think could be a bit higher are Animals, Blondie, Spencer Davis group/Steve Winwood, Dr John. Now the total omissions: How on earth could you not include Ben E. King? There was never a better vocalist and I had to examine this listing a number of times before I could believe he was missing. At least tier no. 2 as far as I'm concerned. Secondly, how could Iggy Pop not be there at all? I won't comment on the inclusion of Zappa, since I don't know whether he is in any way rock or soul (!) but I do question the omission of Captain Beefheart. Others who could at least have made the lower tiers are Lee Dorsey, Irma Thomas, Willy DeVille, the New York Dolls, John Cale (some might say JJ Cale!), Lee 'Scratch' Perry, and, dare I say, Christina Aguillera. Final question: How do you draw the line between great rock and soul artists and great blues ones?
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Alley Gator says:	11/28/11 11:50 pm
bad habitat said: How on earth could you not include Ben E. King? There was never a better vocalist and I had to examine this listing a number of times before I could believe he was missing. At least tier no. 2 as far as I'm concerned. You might ask the same question about David Ruffin, perhaps The Temptations' greatest lead vocalist. Like Ruffin, I don't include Ben E. King as an individual artist in the Pantheon because most of his greatest performances were as lead vocalist of The (later) Drifters. His solo masterpieces, "Spanish Harlem" and "Stand By Me," were produced by Leiber & Stoller as well. I don't think there's any one best way to rank both individuals and groups within the same framework. My approach in the Pantheon (explained in the FAQ) ends up shorting a few great vocalists. Cats can post Artist Lists to create their own versions of a level playing field for vocalists, whether in groups or not, like the one catfish posted a month ago.
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Alley Gator says:	11/29/11 12:30 am
bad habitat said: How do you draw the line between great rock and soul artists and great blues ones? A really good question that might belong elsewhere on the Alley, had I had the foresight to set it up. To me the essence of the line is the audience an artist appeals to. Blues artists once had a distinctly different audience than rock and soul artists, but that's less true now with so many listeners having grown up in a world in which white artists had created a new hybrid of blues-rock. So nowadays there are plenty of rock artists who play a lot of blues, clearly playing to a rock audience. And white listeners who love the non-hybrid blues have become part of what was once a predominantly African-American blues audience. In practice, pop, blues, country, folk, and gospel songs, albums, and artists are included on the Alley only when their impact crosses over into rock and soul (except for in the CD Database, which is musically eclectic).
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Alley Gator says:	12/03/11 11:45 pm
bad habitat said: underrated: The Doors without question. They belong somewhere around 2nd tier. Given how many Cats have commented on The Doors in this discussion, I decided to try an experiment: I started a thread devoted just to The Doors on the Artist Comments page. Would you (or any other Cat) make your case for The Doors over there?
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jere1911 says:	03/08/13 7:35 pm
Thoughts about Jerry Lee Lewis and his place in the Pantheon. First, I've just read and recommend Nick Toches' "Hellfire"--the biography of Jerry Lee which Greil Marcus calls the best bio ever written about a rock performer. It's a quick and compelling read, written with the style of a novelist, but packed with information, and providing a good sense of the Deep South world (musically and culturally)from which he emerged. The Pantheon puts him in Tier 3, based really on just a few records--one of which is among the premier singles in the history of rock n roll (I don't have to name it), and the rest of which are just pretty good songs, but performed by a rocker of a great power. My sense is that he's ranked up there as much on the basis of potential, and the glory of that magic single, as on the body of his work. Otherwise, how can he rank higher than, say, the Platters. Or is it something more--the combination of music and culture he synthesized so well? That does make him important. Read the book.
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Alley Gator says:	03/09/13 12:01 am
jere1911 said: The Pantheon puts him in Tier 3, based really on just a few records--one of which is among the premier singles in the history of rock n roll (I don't have to name it), and the rest of which are just pretty good songs, but performed by a rocker of a great power. My sense is that he's ranked up there as much on the basis of potential, and the glory of that magic single, as on the body of his work. Otherwise, how can he rank higher than, say, the Platters. Or is it something more--the combination of music and culture he synthesized so well? That does make him important... I once listened all the way through 10 LPs of every track JLL recorded for Sun with very few duds. He's a completely original interpreter who could sing just about anything and make it his own. In that light he may be underrated at Tier 3. There's at least one live LP of his (from 1964) that many rank near the top in excitement. I haven't read his bio, but the fact that he's a raving maniac cuts both ways. So, for me: very, very high in innovation and execution; not so high in influence; erratic but deep catalog including at least a couple of dozen great tracks. Could any other white guy go head to head with Little Richard?
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jere1911 says:	03/10/13 4:05 am
jere1911 said: The Pantheon puts him in Tier 3, based really on just a few records--one of which is among the premier singles in the history of rock n roll (I don't have to name it), and the rest of which are just pretty good songs, but performed by a rocker of a great power. My sense is that he's ranked up there as much on the basis of potential, and the glory of that magic single, as on the body of his work. Otherwise, how can he rank higher than, say, the Platters. Or is it something more--the combination of music and culture he synthesized so well? That does make him important... Alley Gator said: I once listened all the way through 10 LPs of every track JLL recorded for Sun with very few duds. He's a completely original interpreter who could sing just about anything and make it his own. In that light he may be underrated at Tier 3. There's at least one live LP of his (from 1964) that many rank near the top in excitement. I haven't read his bio, but the fact that he's a raving maniac cuts both ways. So, for me: very, very high in innovation and execution; not so high in influence; erratic but deep catalog including at least a couple of dozen great tracks. Could any other white guy go head to head with Little Richard? Good points, Gator, and I'm sold on Tier 3 in light of them. I suppose my comment was driven a lot by the relatively few major pop hits, and my not being a fan of either Breathless or HS Confidential. Perhaps a question of how to weight the criteria in the Pantheon. I do agree on high in execution, and no doubt the execution was all the greater live. I accept your judgment about the catalogue, and the question is how to weight it. No reason why it has to be full of top hit singles to be important (as later decades proved many times over). The innovation point is the one I find most interesting, indeed in discussions of all kinds of music . An important artist's work is always more than the sum of its parts, and though it can be picked apart, the nature of the innovations it offers, the influences on it, its influences on other work--they're usually complex questions with no clean answers. Jerry Lee was a great synthesizer of important musical threads and did help produce what Tosches, in the biography, describes as the biggest thing to affect the music business (and by implication music itself) since the invention of recorded sound--as he puts it, "white rock and roll". Yes, he may have been the only guy who could go head to head with Little Richard --and also Chuck Berry, with whom Jerry Lee toured and argued with over who would close the package shows. Now that's a show I wished I'd seen.
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jere1911 says:	03/31/13 3:31 pm
Returning to the subject of Jerry Lee Lewis, in addition to highly recommending Tosches biography, I recommend that Cats sample the country material that revived Lewis's career in the 1968-71 period. A producer decided, as Tosches quotes him, "to put Jerry country," and the result was a string of top ten country singles. Lewis brings his signature voice styling and high energy to string of high quality country tunes. The energy, the intensity, the uniqueness are always present, regardless of the tempo of the song. I had never heard of this stuff until I read the book, and I guess that shows that back in that era, country music just didn't enter the consciousness of most of us Northern urban rock fans (the way it might today whether you happened to like it or not). Anyway, if you're interested, Killer Country is a fine compilation--for $5.99 on Amazon!
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cornercat says:	04/20/13 6:22 am
jere1911 said: producer decided, as Tosches quotes him, "What Made Milwaukee Famous" is a great record. A classic in every way, and a long time favorite of mine.
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Murgatroyd says:	04/22/13 1:58 pm
I think at this point it's safe to move Radiohead onto Tier 1 - innovative and passionate, they have moved music forward. No other band can fill an arena playing such complex, nuanced music. I would also move Nirvana to Tier 2 - indelible songs, emotional delivery. If they'd had an chance to continue, I'm sure Tier 1 would've been in their future.
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Alley Gator says:	04/24/13 9:14 pm
Murgatroyd said: I think at this point it's safe to move Radiohead onto Tier 1 - innovative and passionate, they have moved music forward. No other band can fill an arena playing such complex, nuanced music. I would also move Nirvana to Tier 2 - indelible songs, emotional delivery. If they'd had an chance to continue, I'm sure Tier 1 would've been in their future. Treating each time slice as its own entity, your opinions have widespread support. Perhaps the best evidence is here. In my ideal Alley world we'd have a large enough pool of active Cats to develop a "Cats' Consensus" Pantheon as a counterpoint to Gator's. Lacking that, I hope you'll take advantage of the option to post your own Pantheon As List 1991-2012. Maybe that will inspire other Cats to do the same. I'd love to see what you come up with!
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Alley Gator says:	03/08/14 10:13 pm
Hey, Cats! I've been thinking about adding a couple of names to the Pantheon, and I'd like to see if anyone wants to put in their two cents. How about adding Bobby Womack to tier six for the 72-76 time period? Songs like "Woman's Gotta Have It," "That's the Way I Feel About Cha," and "Looking for A Love" were really popular in this time frame. How about adding Boz Scaggs to tier six for the 72-76 time period? Boz continues to make great music and stand out as a touring act. As time passes, his talent rises above the pack. 1976 was when Silk Degrees and "Lowdown" made his biggest impact on the charts.
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